Indeed, I believed--and subsequent events have confirmed that view--that Joe was thinking a good deal more of himself as the centre of a dramatic and historic scene than of wounding Mr.Gladstone.And, then, the use of the word "Judas" must be taken with the context.

Mr.Chamberlain was talking of the "days of Herod," and when I called out "Judas," what I really meant was why not select Judas, and not Herod, who was his contemporary, if you will refer to this particular epoch of human history.

I say all these things, not by way of extenuation; for really I regard the incident as closed; not by way of defending myself from rancour, for I felt none; but with a view to preventing an entirely incorrect view and impression of an historical evening from being stereotyped.
[Sidenote: "I used it on purpose."] And I can call a very potent and trustworthy witness as to this being the proper view of the incident; for I understand that, almost immediately after the scene, a good-natured Liberal said to Mr.
Chamberlain that he must confess that the use of the word "Herod" was calculated to produce the retort of "Judas"; and the report is that Mr.
Chamberlain replied, "I used it on purpose," or "That was my intention," or some such phrase as that, which implied that he was neither surprised nor annoyed by the retort, but had rather invited it.

I lost sight of Joe for a good time after this--there were other things which had to be looked after; but I am told by those who were able to watch him closely, that his face wore all through the scene which followed a look of almost beatific happiness--the happiness of an artist who saw slowly unfolding the drama to which he had given the impetus, and which he had fashioned out in his own reveries.
[Sidenote: Opening of the row.] At all events, it was not either Mr.Chamberlain's use of the word "Herod," nor my use of the word "Judas," which really brought about the subsequent row--except in the most indirect and remote way.

Mr.Vicary Gibbs seemed possessed by the idea that he should call the attention of the Chairman to the use of the word "Judas"; and he singled me out--although, of course, he knew that I was only one of many who had used the word.